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jdlaw
Posted: Monday, February 13, 2012 7:11:51 AM

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I will be presenting my paper entitled "Machine Skepticism using a Non-Classical Suspension of a Logic Gate" at the Mormon Transhumanist Association symposium on April 6, 2012 in Salt Lake City.



There is probably a rule on the Universe Solved forum that says you are not supposed to use the Forum for this purpose, but well, I'll just claim ignorance.
EKUMA1981
Posted: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 8:28:54 AM
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Sounds good, jdlaw. Looks like a pleasant, open-minded association. Kinda brings religion and science/technology closer together which has to be a great thing.

Are you a (Transhumanist) Mormon yourself? And, will the video be available to watch online?
jim
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:43:27 PM

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There is no such rule, jdlaw (if there were, I wouldn't be able to plug my radio interviews :d/ ). And even if there was, we would certainly make an exception for such a forward-looking conference and such a historically great contributor to this site. Best of luck with the presentation. The paper looks fascinating as well!
jdlaw
Posted: Saturday, February 25, 2012 7:09:12 AM

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Of course the link, I gave before was my first stream of consciousness draft. The writing was a little awkward. Here is the latest version. I would appreciate any comments, edits, suggestions, etc. from the Forum.

http://www.non-virtual.com/Paper.pdf

I think I need a parenthetical quote from Jim Elvidge to cite from The Universe Solved for an endnote between my not 15 and 16 in the paper.

Jim, can you suggest your "best" short quote that makes the best argument for a programmed universe for me to cite in my paper?
jdlaw
Posted: Saturday, February 25, 2012 7:25:59 AM

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EKUMA1981 wrote:
Sounds good, jdlaw. Looks like a pleasant, open-minded association. Kinda brings religion and science/technology closer together which has to be a great thing.

Are you a (Transhumanist) Mormon yourself? And, will the video be available to watch online?


And I think yes, they do video this. And yes I am a member of the MTA. Several of our members have also attended the "Turing Church." These are all great groups that have realized the "Programmed Universe" and "God Argument" are kind of the same thing. If there is a "Great Program" or "Great Programmers" you might just as well call them Gods, but just not have to put in all the anthropomorphic mumbo-jumbo or mysticism that has been so historically damaging and otherwise unsavory to the agnostic or atheist way of thinking.
jdlaw
Posted: Monday, February 27, 2012 7:21:45 AM

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jdlaw wrote:
Of course the link, I gave before was my first stream of consciousness draft. The writing was a little awkward. Here is the latest version. I would appreciate any comments, edits, suggestions, etc. from the Forum.

http://www.non-virtual.com/Paper.pdf

I think I need a parenthetical quote from Jim Elvidge to cite from The Universe Solved for an endnote between my not 15 and 16 in the paper.

Jim, can you suggest your "best" short quote that makes the best argument for a programmed universe for me to cite in my paper?


Bump! I really do hope to hear back from a few of you. The paper (link posted above) is only 1200 words (4 pages double spaced). It is not a long read, but hopefully interesting enough to be worthy of comment. I need your comments to help make it a better paper.
jim
Posted: Monday, February 27, 2012 9:39:28 PM

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jdlaw wrote:
Jim, can you suggest your "best" short quote that makes the best argument for a programmed universe for me to cite in my paper?


How would something like this work, jdlaw?:

"When you look into the nature of reality with an open mind, yet armed with the tools of math and hard science (such as quantum mechanics and cosmology), it is hard not to arrive at the conclusion that a programmatic mechanism is behind the workings of the universe. The evidence includes the discrete nature of reality, the inevitable direction of virtual reality, the finely-tuned universe, and the fact that all known scientific and metaphysical anomalies are only explained by such a model."
jdlaw
Posted: Friday, March 02, 2012 6:59:35 AM

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jim wrote:
jdlaw wrote:
Jim, can you suggest your "best" short quote that makes the best argument for a programmed universe for me to cite in my paper?


How would something like this work, jdlaw?:

"When you look into the nature of reality with an open mind, yet armed with the tools of math and hard science (such as quantum mechanics and cosmology), it is hard not to arrive at the conclusion that a programmatic mechanism is behind the workings of the universe. The evidence includes the discrete nature of reality, the inevitable direction of virtual reality, the finely-tuned universe, and the fact that all known scientific and metaphysical anomalies are only explained by such a model."


Great! Is that found in your book, your weblog, or did you just make it up here and now? ... i.e. I need a citation.
jdlaw
Posted: Sunday, March 04, 2012 6:59:05 AM

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Bump!

I just did a text search of the word "programmatic" contained in your quote and the above particular quote is not in your book, blog, or text of any speeches or appearances that I can google. I propose the following citation format for my paper.

See also Elvidge, Jim, author of The Universe Solved, Alternative Theories Press, (2007) ISBN 978-1-4243-3626-5 (“When you look into the nature of reality with an open mind, yet armed with the tools of math and hard science such as quantum mechanics and cosmology, it is hard not to arrive at the conclusion that a programmatic mechanism is behind the workings of the universe. The evidence includes the discrete nature of reality, the inevitable direction of virtual reality, the finely-tuned universe, and the fact that all known scientific and metaphysical anomalies are only explained by such a model.”) internal parenthetical removed, quote February 27, 2011 http://theuniversesolved.com
jdlaw
Posted: Sunday, March 04, 2012 7:04:34 AM

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Sorry, fix the date.

See also Elvidge, Jim, author of The Universe Solved, Alternative Theories Press, (2007) ISBN 978-1-4243-3626-5 (“When you look into the nature of reality with an open mind, yet armed with the tools of math and hard science (such as quantum mechanics and cosmology), it is hard not to arrive at the conclusion that a programmatic mechanism is behind the workings of the universe. The evidence includes the discrete nature of reality, the inevitable direction of virtual reality, the finely-tuned universe, and the fact that all known scientific and metaphysical anomalies are only explained by such a model.”) quoted 02/27/12, http://theuniversesolved.com
jdlaw
Posted: Sunday, March 04, 2012 7:10:03 AM

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Your, " it's hard not to arrive at the conclusion" could really be construed as an Occam's razor compatabalists argument for free will, could it not?
jdlaw
Posted: Sunday, March 04, 2012 7:13:02 AM

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Quote:
And I think yes, they do video this. And yes I am a member of the MTA. Several of our members have also attended the "Turing Church."



Do we have any other Turing Church members in here?
jim
Posted: Sunday, March 04, 2012 10:46:19 AM

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Hi jdlaw,
Yes you are correct that that quote was not from the book or a blog, but just made up for you, so your reference looks good. Re. your question about the free will argument, if I understand the question and Compatibilism correctly, I am not saying anything along the lines of that particular philosophical belief. The Programmed Reality model just covers the workings of the universe; i.e. the state of all elements of matter and energy. It really could be compatible with free will or not free will. That said, my personal belief leans toward free will in the sense of a true spiritual consciousness interacting with the programmed reality, not unlike an avatar. Make sense? Let me know if that answered your question.
Cheers
jdlaw
Posted: Monday, March 05, 2012 1:18:50 PM

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jim wrote:
Hi jdlaw,
Yes you are correct that that quote was not from the book or a blog, but just made up for you, so your reference looks good. Re. your question about the free will argument, if I understand the question and Compatibilism correctly, I am not saying anything along the lines of that particular philosophical belief. The Programmed Reality model just covers the workings of the universe; i.e. the state of all elements of matter and energy. It really could be compatible with free will or not free will. That said, my personal belief leans toward free will in the sense of a true spiritual consciousness interacting with the programmed reality, not unlike an avatar. Make sense? Let me know if that answered your question.
Cheers


Perfect! I had already added the citation with your quote in the parenthetical in endnote number 9. http://www.non-virtual.com/Paper.pdf

This paper will be somewhat a funny read in that in keeping within the 1200 word limit, which the MTA requires, the paper itself merely makes claims and hypotheses with the bulk of the support contained entirely in end-note citations and parenthetical quotes within those citations. To understand this paper, you sort of have to read two papers -- the body text of the argument is paper 1 and then read through all the end-note citations for support of the arguments as paper 2. Of course it also helps then to go back and see what statements, I was actually supporting in the body of the paper.

Overall, I am finally feeling happy with this version including your quote.

As to "free-will" I like the "programmed reality" approach because it really does "avoid" the "free-will" argument altogether. You can be agent Smith or you can be Neo. If you want to read more about this particular compatiblists approach you can refer and google search end-notes 6, 7, 11, 12, 16, 18, 19, and 21 - paying particular attention to 7 and 18

"Even if all roads lead to Rome, and if there are infinite roads, the path is still not determined." I believe in that particular form, it is my original -- but certainly may be similar to other such quotes. I am using "destination" contrasted with "determinism" to form a modified type of compatiblism.

“Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I ‘m not sure about the former.” Albert Einstein - so, if our gift of "stupidity" is infinite, then we certainly have infinite paths to take - even if we live in a deterministic virtual-world.
jdlaw
Posted: Monday, March 05, 2012 1:29:22 PM

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jdlaw wrote:
Quote:
And I think yes, they do video this. And yes I am a member of the MTA. Several of our members have also attended the "Turing Church."



Do we have any other Turing Church members in here?


Bump!

Kurzweil supported Turing Church thing is pretty cool. Any Church members in here?
jdlaw
Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2012 7:18:26 AM

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Bump! again.

Still looking for Turing Church members. This is a Kurzweil thing. Maybe I should move the topic over to the Kurzweil watch. I'll take the lack of reply that no one in the Forum other than me has been to Turning-Church yet?

If not, go check it out. It's a pretty cool intersection of science and faith -- and although majority of the membership are probably atheist (or something similar to anti-religion) they are accepting that the new frontier in trans-humanism is likely to follow a big paradigm shift in how we view science and faith together.

I have also update my paper for the MTA presentation. http://www.non-virtual.com/Paper.pdf . I hope the writing, which had started as stream of consciousness in the early drafts - is now coming along. I would love to hear any comments at all about your thoughts on "machine skepticism."
jdlaw
Posted: Sunday, April 22, 2012 6:43:46 AM

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Here is the post of the presentation. There were a great many other presentations at this transhumanists conference that should be of interest here.

My presentation "Foundations of Skeptical Operating Systems using Non-Classical Suspension of a Logic Gate"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQTiqj6B4ew

I also greatly enjoyed this one on problems with epiphenomenalism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxzSyLAj3NI&feature=relmfu

And this excellent look beyond gender binarism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocUHzmK6IjU

Many others. Have a look.
EKUMA1981
Posted: Sunday, April 22, 2012 10:26:24 AM
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Thanks so much for sharing, jdlaw. I need interesting stuff to watch/listen to, because television and radio in the UK is absolutely rubbish at the moment.
RogerV
Posted: Monday, April 23, 2012 7:16:49 AM
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(First of all, my apologies for just now reading through this conversation thread.)

"jdlaw" wrote:
If there is a "Great Program" or "Great Programmers" you might just as well call them Gods, but just not have to put in all the anthropomorphic mumbo-jumbo or mysticism that has been so historically damaging and otherwise unsavory to the agnostic or atheist way of thinking.



Well, is good to hear there are situations that may be helping those of agnostic or atheistic thinking get past their materialistic universe hang up where they've been trying to shoe horn reality into for past two to three hundred years.

Would just suggest that said folk (reductionist/materialist) not be too harsh on the "anthropomorphic mumbo-jumbo or mysticism" of past thinkers and traditions. Have in mind, for instance, the Gnostics and Hermeticist of first three centuries AD in Egypt. They didn't have scientific understandings and jargon in which to frame their concepts. Yet when we view those concepts against what today we've come to determine about the fabric of reality via quantum physics, or the various NDE studies, or LSD/DMT studies, or the modern cataloged experiences of UFO abductees and other paranormal encounters, we see that their spiritually intuitive understandings overlap with a lot of commonality to what has been reported in these areas.

IOW, gnosis may not be an entirely illegitimate means by which to come by useful understandings and insights.

Would also remind the folks that value the scientific age and rational thinking, that the Gnostics were suppressed and murderously wiped out (Cathars) every time their framework of ideas persisted and threatened as a rival to dogmatic supernatural religion. And just as the religious dogmatist regularly became mass murders so too did the "rational" atheistic ideologies of the 20th century. Intolerance and hatred are evidently able to take seed in about any human context where some form of absolutism reigns.
jdlaw
Posted: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 6:27:13 AM

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True. God might be a transhuman - which by definition would be at least somewhat anthropomorphic. Transhumanists, so far, seem to be a very open-minded group and tend to look for compatible approaches to understanding future human development.

Any thoughts on machine skepticism? I see the development this type of programming to be essential for any possible future mind uploading. If all you upload is the data, you will never capture the essense of personality.
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