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And they didn't beat you? Options
Neo
Posted: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:36:45 PM
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Estragon: Beat me? Certainly they beat me.
Vladimir: The same lot as usual?
Estragon: The same? I don't know.

('Waiting for Godot', - Samuel Beckett)

Why do we suffer? What is its purpose, if any? And how does suffering fit into a programmed reality? Ok, I'm throwing out a lot of heavy questions here, and to be honest I'm not that familiar with the concept of programmed reality (not as much as I'd like to be at any rate) but this question resonates with me. If this
http://www.hedweb.com/welcome.htm comes to pass then what does it say about the generations who lived before? That they were just 'unlucky'? Does Karma exist, or is it just a comforting notion? Do others here ponder the nature of suffering and are troubled by it?

Ok, that's about all for now, and I've tied jim at 6-6! Drool

There is no spoon.
jim
Posted: Friday, March 28, 2008 11:05:50 AM

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Wow. Interesting site. Sounds a little "Brave New World," no?

If (I always say "if") our reality is programmed, it doesn't mean that we aren't free-willed conscious entities behind our bodies interacting with a programmed construct. We suffer physically because of the way our bodies are constructed. Why we suffer emotionally is far less understood.

Suffering may serve no purpose, but it may be the result of bad decisions made by immature souls. I have also heard it said that suffering serves a purpose. Everything has to have an opposite to appreciate it - yin/yan philosophy. Without darkness, you can't appreciate light. Without silence, you can't appreciate music. Perhaps, without suffering, you can't appreciate pleasure.

In either case, I can imagine being made to suffer if your sensory stimuli and emotional centers are under control of a program. Think about the biofeedback you get from some games and simulators (one example here) Or, if reality is programmed physically, then it would just be the biofeedback from our real physical senses.
Neo
Posted: Friday, March 28, 2008 3:44:54 PM
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Quote:
Wow. Interesting site. Sounds a little "Brave New World," no?


Definitely a "Brave New World" feel alright, but with the vital distinction that it's utopian and not dystopian in outlook. There's a critique of "Brave New World" on the site which is worth checking out. David Pearce, the author of that internet manifesto co-founded this http://transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/about/ with Nick Bostrom a decade ago. That statement at the end of the first paragraph

"It is predicted that the world's last unpleasant experience will be a percisely datable event"

is a captivating one, what a vision!



There is no spoon.
mortimer
Posted: Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:29:19 AM

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Neo wrote:
Why do we suffer? What is its purpose, if any? And how does suffering fit into a programmed reality?


I'm always amused why people seem so concerned that there has got to be some kind of morality behind the programming. As Philip K. Dick asks in VALIS: "if there is a universal consciousness, must it be sane?" God may in fact be quite mad. Also, who's to say that the grand designer isn't just some nerdy teenage hacker with a sadistic sense of humour?

Imagine a world, however, without suffering and pain. How could one maintain happiness and experience pleasure if there is nothing to contrast it against?

media underground
Neo
Posted: Sunday, March 30, 2008 3:17:25 PM
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mortimer wrote:
Neo wrote:
Why do we suffer? What is its purpose, if any? And how does suffering fit into a programmed reality?


I'm always amused why people seem so concerned that there has got to be some kind of morality behind the programming.


Well, I was throwing out some heavy questions to kick things off here. As I said I'm not that familiar with this whole area, and the idea that we are living in some sort of programmed reality seems both fantastic and intriguing to me - and I want to keep an open mind on the topic. But for now I'll leave the heavy debates about this to those who are more au fait with the topic than moi while I (hopefully) get more clued in to this question.

Quote:
Imagine a world, however, without suffering and pain. How could one maintain happiness and experience pleasure if there is nothing to contrast it against?


Perhaps we are on the cusp of a paradigm shift where the degrees of difference of state will no longer be gradiented between pain and pleasure, but between pleasure and states of bliss.

Think

There is no spoon.
jdlaw
Posted: Sunday, March 30, 2008 8:40:55 PM

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When I question the reasons or logic a Programmer of reality might have for pain an suffering, I like to compare it with Pascal's Gambit; you know, · You may believe in God, and God exists, in which case you go to heaven: your gain is infinite. · You may believe in God, and God doesn't exist, in which case your loss is finite and therefore negligible. · You may not believe in God, and God doesn't exist, in which case your gain is finite and therefore negligible. · You may not believe in God, and God exists, in which case you will go to hell: your loss is infinite.

Your faith does not have to be the basis for the existence of a Programmed reality, but the existence of programmer may be the object of your faith. In other words, if "Her eye is on the sparrow" and the great programmer knows your every thought, you must consider the new type of wager; that is a wager that does not belong to you. Instead of you making the bet of whether or not there is a Programmer turn your game theory around; the Programmer(s) just might have a wager on you. Then it follows that there is some purpose for this arrangement. She will always keep you in the driver's seat, counting on you a whole lot more than you can possibly be counting on Her.

Next if you believe in programmed reality, the logical next step is that we get to run this program many times (multiple mortal probations). In some dualities, it is your son, nephew, or cousin who has a physical disability; in another duality, he doesn't. In some dualities it is you with the physical disabilities. Can't you see now how it is that the weak shall be strong and the meek shall inherit the earth.

You may have actually agreed to this program where you will experience pleasure and pain, sadness and joy, virtue and vice. How boring would it be for you to not have both? In this program, you can't have one thing without its opposite.

Quoting Shakespeare, "We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life ss rounded with a sleep."
mortimer
Posted: Thursday, April 3, 2008 10:41:23 PM

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Neo wrote:
Perhaps we are on the cusp of a paradigm shift where the degrees of difference of state will no longer be gradiented between pain and pleasure, but between pleasure and states of bliss.


I'm not sure if that would abolish pain or things unpleasurable. For example: living in the UK, the dreadful weather often gets me down and I find myself almost ecstatically happy at the first sign of a sunny day. When I went to Australia ten years ago, I thought the constant sunshine would keep me in a permanent state of happiness, but the opposite happpened and I ended up craving rain after 3 months.

I think all that would happen is the goal posts would change and we'd end up redefining what is painful or pleasurable.

Plus, it'd be a pretty boring world to live in without potential danger. I guess what I'm saying is that the game of life would be dull without risk and the potential for experiencing something awful. Where would we get the motivation to do anything worthwhile?

media underground
sambuca
Posted: Monday, September 8, 2008 7:27:44 AM
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d'oh! u know --ever since childhood i have always wondered about this compelling need that the overwhelming majority of humans worldwide have to be under the control of some thing or someone else---why do most people avoid being on their own in this existence and need reinforcement and rewards from some other unknown and unproven source to lead a good and moral life---i respect everyones right to their beliefs whatever they r but it is curious what the underlying causes r 4 this desire to be "under the thumb" of something or someone else in ultimate control---i can honestly say that from my preteens i saw the world as it is in reality according to proven facts of science and my 2 feet r on the ground and my head is not in the clouds--i have studied all the major religions of the world including a few little known ones like the rosacrucians-the jaines-quakers-amish and while i agree with all their good moral and ethical teachings i part company when it comes to this strange belief in some omnipotent all powerful being or god which i think humans created and not the other way around--- Think
jdlaw
Posted: Monday, September 8, 2008 9:10:08 PM

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jdlaw wrote:
She will always keep you in the driver's seat, counting on you a whole lot more than you can possibly be counting on Her ...
Quoting Shakespeare, "We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is rounded with a sleep."
MatrixReality
Posted: Monday, January 11, 2010 12:58:07 AM

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sambuca wrote:
d'oh! why do most people avoid being on their own in this existence and need reinforcement and rewards from some other unknown and unproven source to lead a good and moral life-- Think


Hmm, based on a head count of humans, being on our own doesn't seem to be a prevalent program. I think we are programmed, hard wired, to some extent. (the old nature vs nuture debate), and our scripts/programming is in our DNA. Humans want a consensus purpose & meaning, a community. This has benefited us with progress & security, but has negative effects as well. Being on your own makes for a much more lonely existence and a possibly harsher, tougher view of the Universe. Obviously, most people opt out and just go with the consensus worldview of their culture. Looking back through history, it was often those who went out on their own who made the great discoveries and created a paradigm shift in how humans viewed the world (Plato, Aristotle, Copernicus, Descartes, Hume, Schopenhauer, Einstein, etc.) It appears some of these seekers are on this forum. After 40+ years of searching, studying, and education in every relevant subject imaginable relating to a search for meaning & purpose of life, I have to say the Universe as a virtual reality created by information processing, a programmed reality, appears the most likely and plausible explanation of our "objective reality", imho. All the Best :)
sunburnt
Posted: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:21:38 AM
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Neo,

hi!!...I asked the same questions to myself when i was a kid.... " why do we suffer??whats is its purpose"...fortunately I figured out a satifying answer to that....
A person can truly appreciate light only if he has seen darkness......without darkness nobody would have recognized the existence of light...the same goes for sufferring..it exists so that u know when u are happy...!!!but then I started thinking what is the purpose of happiness....so that i know when iam sufferring??? :X lol.... I guess happiness and sufferring have to co-exist to exist!!!!

Neo
Posted: Monday, January 11, 2010 6:17:18 PM
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sunburnt wrote:
I guess happiness and sufferring have to co-exist to exist!!!!


Do they? It certainly seems to be a fundamental condition of life as we know it, but soon we should have the ability to 'rewrite our own software' so to say, as that Hedweb site describes. As no creature cares for experiencing extreme pain, these 'pathways of malaise' may soon be modified in humans so that they are not as distressing as before.

There is no spoon.
Tracy
Posted: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 4:13:09 PM
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IMO there is suffering because our mind creates it. Politicians want power over people, so there's war, multi-millionares are so greedy that a million billion $'s aren't enough, so there's poverty. If mind is holographic, then we all create it.
I think there are simple solutions to these things, but it won't be realized until enough of the individual minds tune in to what I call the 'new thinking' that the collective human consciousness tunes in to its 'new mind.'
sunburnt
Posted: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 5:10:23 AM
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well..the bottom line is....everything that exists has a purpose...without a purpose "Matrix" simply deletes it...!!! So the fact that suffering still exists implies that suffering has a purpose...it has an importance...!!!!Guys imagine a world where der's no war... no suffering for all eternity...Its gonna be soo boring!!!
Tracy
Posted: Wednesday, January 13, 2010 3:30:00 PM
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Quote:
well..the bottom line is....everything that exists has a purpose...

That so true.
IMO it's part of an evolutionary process of the mind.
sunburnt
Posted: Thursday, January 14, 2010 1:26:40 AM
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Tracy wrote:

IMO it's part of an evolutionary process of the mind.


well.. what do u mean by evolutionary process of the mind...can u eloborate??
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