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sambuca
Posted: Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:45:55 AM
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has it always been there or did the first appearance of matter create it because of expansion from the first particle etc.--why couldn't time exist without matter to measure it's progress from event to event--does time require the acknowledgement of some entity to be recognized---perhaps time always existed but in a zero state waiting to begin sort of on "standby" not needing events to be measured until matter appeared----Think
spearshaker
Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009 8:53:36 PM

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You have posed the question so well that there's not much to be said in response, except: "Yeh, who knows?"

In physics, as in every day life, time is nothing more than the number of repetitions of an oscillator, or orbits and turnings of a planet, that accrue while an event is being "timed." That's it; there's no more to it than that! So much for our formal understanding. The concept of "verb," and particularly the verb "to be," seem to imply more than this, but if nothing happens, and nothing is there, what then?

I might add that relativity's view of time as a 4th dimension adds no insight; it just facilitates a neater formalizing of the mathematics.

Psi phenomena demonstrate how primitive our understanding still remains, in spite of our marvelous harnessing of what we do know in the form of gadgetry. We're great tool makers but poor philosophers. d'oh!
jim
Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009 11:14:18 PM

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I'd definitely recommend the book "The End of Time" by Julian Barbour.

The concept is simple and kind of obvious. Time is just a sequence of states of the Universe. Effectively, it is the same as Programmed Reality. Each state is a snapshot of all of the variables in "the program." Reality is moving through those states. Time is the sequences of transitions from one state to the next ones.

It's really nothing more than a "Finite State Machine" of cosmic complexity.

But what is interesting is how it jives with the ideas that the subjective passage of time is due to the number of unique states that you go through.
spearshaker
Posted: Monday, October 19, 2009 12:25:36 PM

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Thanks for the recommendation. Your response has sharpened the focus enough here to pose the following question:

What triggers the sequences of states? In ordinary physical reality, it's spontaneous quantum jumps within a system, or interactions with other systems. But this just seems to place the notion of "time" one step further into the unfathomable, as the adjunct of physical law; and we have no idea where these "laws" come from. But maybe that's as far as we can go?

Ideas undoubtedly, at least in sentient beings, are associated with states in the brain. But what about psi phenomena? Perhaps we just need better formulations of physical law that allow "jumping around" processes within potential sequences? I'm not sure what meaning "potential" has here, but words fail me. That's why I like mathematics: one is severely limited in scope, but one can point at the result and challenge anyone to fault it.Brick wall
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