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Neutrinos: BIG SCIENCE happens Options
spearshaker
Posted: Saturday, September 24, 2011 3:15:08 PM

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Some years back, the problem of the Sun’s energy output rate was troubling theorists: Measurements of the Sun’s neutrino output, as associated with its energy production, yielded only about a third of what was expected. The solution was determined to be “neutrino oscillation.” Neutrinos are of three kinds, but they are not interchangeable in their interactions. So they oscillate between types, do identity flips, and only one-third reach Earth as the type expected. This discovery we attribute to “Wizards A.”

To “oscillate,” (as one might guess from the word itself) time must exist for the moving neutrinos. But at light speed time ceases to exist. All eternity is collapsed into an instant. So, it is reasoned, neutrinos must not travel at light speed as previously thought, they must travel slower. This requires that they have mass.

Now, in September 2011, we are informed by another group, we’ll call them “Wizards B,” that neutrinos have been clocked at a speed greater than that of light. If special relativity is to retain any meaning, there’s a gross contradiction here between these two results. They are incompatible. To oscillate, neutrinos must have mass; to travel faster than light they must not have mass..

The contradictory conclusions of Wizards A and Wizards B are likely the result of exceedingly poor quality, “noisy” data. Computers can handle the tremendously depressing odds against drawing the needles out of Mount Everest sized haystacks, it is argued. A tacit assumption in both cases is that all pseudo events, instrument signals that look like needles but aren’t, have been accounted for.

Wizards A were first to achieve the requisite ballyhoo, and their conclusions supported anticipated results, probably decisive factors for the time being. Wizards B are in big trouble, not just with special relativity, but more importantly because of the momentum achieved by the earlier work. However, they have behind them the world’s greatest machine, the LHC.

This is a great opportunity to see how the situation plays out. I’m personally betting they’re both wrong; computers can’t substitute for minds.

Whistle
TheArchitect
Posted: Saturday, September 24, 2011 4:57:50 PM
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spearshaker wrote:

I’m personally betting they’re both wrong;


I completely agree. It is a little too early to draw any conclusions from the data collected by the LNGS group.

-TheArchitect
jim
Posted: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 10:35:26 AM

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LOVE this topic!

I agree that they will both be wrong. Science follows that Hegelian dialectic model. It is probably completely arbitrary that Wizards A got their finding before Wizards B. I don't discount Wizards B's finding yet; supposedly it is a 6-sigma result, e.g. 1 chance in 500 million of random error.

In any case, it is a fascinating topic and sure to upset the mainstream.

One possibility is that the CERN physicists will have to acknowledge some errors in their data. That could be ugly. This isn't two relatively unknown researchers in Utah. This is CERN.

Another possibility is that the current understanding of relativity and/or causality will have to be modified. You know, that theory that has been tested thousands of times over the past century and is still standing strong.

At a minimum, the buzz is generating all sorts of thoughts and ideas. Superbradyons, tachyons, reverse causality.

Much has been written about this over the past few days and it will take some time to sift through, digest, and opine about. I hope to get some time to do that, but life tends to get in the way. Meanwhile, for those who are interested, here are a few interesting links about or related to the whole drama:

Neutrinos Can Go Faster than Light without Violating Relativity
Physicists Doubt FTL Neutrinos (Scientific American)
A Physicis Forum on Tachyons and Causality
FTL Neutrinos - Don't Get Your Hopes Up
The Math on Tachyons
FTL Neutrinos - Science in Action
Victor Stenger Weighs In

This may be important to the themes of this forum. For one thing, reverse causality is completely consistent with programmed reality (see a couple blog posts on this). So are superluminal speeds and propagation of information. See more from these forum topics:

FTL at Last?
Ramifications of Lense-Thirring Effect
Is Space-Time just a Mirage?
Boltzmann Brains
I would love to hear some additional points of view on this. Meanwhile, I am working on at least one blog post about it all.
jim
Posted: Friday, November 18, 2011 8:12:11 PM

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Another set of data is in, and it supports the FTL neutrinos. In addition, according to the researchers, most criticisms have been rejected.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21188-more-data-shows-neutrinos-still-faster-than-light.html
EKUMA1981
Posted: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:51:58 AM

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This is excellent news, Jim! Maybe superluminal travel will become a reality in the future after all.

Could this possibly mean other particles travelling FTL, like the electron, proton, anti-particles? They should test other particles for similar results. Brilliant stuff.

And, maybe our minds played a small part in this. ;0)

Other link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15791236
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